Welcome to Stories from Site, the podcast for renovation enthusiasts. I’m Amy Dohnalek and together with my co host Jane Middlehurst, we chat with home renovators about the roller coaster that is renovation.

Amy: This week we chat with Paul and Nikki who shared their journey of transforming a cramped kitchen and outdated conservatory into a spacious, character filled living area.

From navigating unreliable builders and project delays to the importance of hiring the right tradespeople, they offer valuable lessons for your own renovation.

So welcome to the podcast, Paul and Nicky. So great to have you with us. We wondered if you could tell us a bit about your renovation. What was The vision, for the project.

Nikki: So, shall I start? years ago when I bought the house, I always wanted a big kitchen and a big bathroom. And we had neither. . So this place has a tiny galley kitchen and then the conservatory, which was probably built in the nineties.

And the thing about it is It was boiling hot in summer and absolutely freezing in winter. So we used to have the kitchen table in the conservatory. And then we had this galley kitchen, and we actually had a hatch. Not a physical hatch, but a hole, where the window was, to see in.

Which my kids, years ago, used to use like a TV, to do little cookery videos and you walked around the end of it. to get into the kitchendining area. so, it was to basically knock down that wall, extend it, and make it into one wonderful living space, which is what we have now,

Amy: Amazing.

Nikki: Which is fabulous warm and not drafty but it has been a lot of hard work.

Amy: Tell us about the journey it’s taken you to get there.

Paul: Yeah. So just following on from that vision, we first started looking around on the internet, looking at other people’s extensions, seeing what we thought worked, what didn’t work. then we engaged a local design and build company. Someone from the area knows the restrictions around what you can and can’t do at the back of these houses.

And so we engaged them. they came along had a few looks at the space and came up with ideas. it pretty much hit the spot in terms of what we wanted to do. we took it from there, really. And, and so that’s how we started the journey, and then obviously one of the things they did that was great for us was they managed all of that process, you know, things like Thames Water, things like, you know, structural, just getting everything ready, getting a a detailed pack ready that we could then take out to builders to give us quotes.

Amy: And did you have particular builders in mind?

Paul: There were one or two local builders that was mentioned around here quite a lot and seemed to be very popular with most peoplebecause we saw their logoed vans. However, it was sort of post pandemic and so it seemed like the world around here decided Not to move, but to extend. so availability was the issue.

And also because, because of materials as well. I think materials have gone up because of what had happened in the economy over the last few years. It was really difficult, to find local builders with availability.

Amy: Yeah.

Paul: We did have one building company who were very keen to take the job and it almost felt like I was being stalked.

Nikki: And the guy also, you know, he came and I was like, it’s actually been quite hard to have you in my house for an hour. How on earth? Are we going to do this project because we’re going to be living on site and I, you know, it was like you had to go with the guts to instinct. Can I work with these people?

Can I communicate with these people? You have to think these people are going to be in your home and with an extension. There’s a part which is wonderful when you’re in your separate world. The builders are in their separate world. Then you knock through and you are literally all living together, during the build, I come down ready to go out somewhere and, I’d be chatting to the builders before I leave my house,

you do have to find somebody that you feel you can communicate with and work with.

Paul: There were other things that were really interesting during that journey of talking to builders. We came across some that would come and look at the project. And then they would only talk to me. They wouldn’t talk to Nikki. So it was kind of that, I don’t know. it just seemed to be, Oh, it’s not my project.

you need to talk to both of us. You need to talk to her as well. So that kind of disqualified them really.

Nikki: Yeah. And we had others, someone came around and said, Oh yeah, we’ve done all these kinds of houses before. It’d be fine. And you’re like, this is our project and we want it to be how we want it to be, not some kind of off the peg, this is what we’re doing

Amy: Absolutely.

Nikki: We did have some architects who came round and they said, do you want to see the house? Oh, I’ve seen all these houses.

to see our house. yeah, this is our house. This is our project.

so we went with the designer. We looked at architects, but there were none available,

who turned up to appointments, who answered emails. They were very, very busy at that time. And so we got this local design and build company. One of the main reasons of doing that was to design. They designed it and built it, but by the time it came to doing the build. We waited like four months, maybe even longer, to get a price.

They couldn’t come up with a price for us. Hang on a minute, you’ve designed this. you’ve gone through everything. You must give us a costing. And so we didn’t end up doing the build with them, we had to go and look for somewhere else. And that kind of delayed the project quite a bit and was very frustrating.

I have to say, one of the most frustrating things is just chasing people, saying, hang on a minute, give us a price, tell us how much it’s going to cost.

Amy: Yeah.

Paul:

Nikki: We never got a price from them. They sent us a lot of emails saying, I’m sorry, this has

happened, that has happened, sorry we haven’t got back to you, Yeah, we’re recruiting new staff. They’re literally down the road from us. we really liked them, and we liked the design they’d done.

We wanted to go all the way through the process with them. But that didn’t happen in the end.

Amy: Was it just that they were overwhelmed by their workload? Mm

Nikki: Yeah, they’re overwhelmed by their workload and I think they’ve got a couple of big projects, And it was a busy, busy time.

Jane: How did you find the person that you ended up working with?

Nikki: We’ve got a community Facebook page and somebody had recommended a couple there. So we came across one and we chatted to them they came to visit us. We really like the people who ran the company. We were actually going away on holiday. By this time, my daughter lives in Canada, and we were going to go and visit her. And so they came round, we chatted, and then we were going to see some of the projects that they’d worked on.

So we had a meeting with them, in the morning, and I think maybe in the afternoon we flew to Canada. So it was all a bit like, oh my goodness. But yes, we went and checked them out and saw projects that they’d done. My proviso would probably be it hasn’t been the smoothest ride. And I think the thing is you can see a project that someone has done.

They might’ve had a different project manager. They might’ve done it a few years ago when they were a smaller company and had less commitments. The problems we got later was that our builders who were great at the beginning, absolutely fabulous, then got involved in other projects, just juggling too many things.

And the quality of what we got in the end, the quality of the finish was not what we would have wanted. You know, so we’re still struggling with snagging and things that haven’t been done properly, but the actual build and the beginning bit of it was great, I just think they took their eye off the ball.

They got overwhelmed. They got too many projects on. And we kind of fell by the wayside.

Amy: It’s so frustrating because you can understand it from a human point of view, but also from your side, it’s your unique project. It’s your money.

how did you manage that?

Paul: We’re still managing it if we’re being honest with you We were on site here throughout the project. So, we could pick up issues as they came along and we could deal with them. When they started having lots of other jobs, they were less frequent here and there were less of them.

And so it was, you know, we were having to kind of contact them to get them here to look at things, so it just took a little bit longer to fix things. When I go back to earlier in the project, Nikki, you remember the one with the height of the picture window?

Nikki: Yes.So, being on site was, I would say, obviously if you’ve got little kids and you can’t live on site, we were lucky we’re doing the extension at the back. So they built us a temporary kitchen in our sort of sitting area. We moved our dining table in there and we had a temporary kitchen.

We could function, we had friends round for Christmas. We did all sorts of normal stuff. All the chaos was happening beyond us. it was great to be on site because you could see every day and they were every day, there’s 10, 15 decisions about various things. But there was one day that I went in and I realized.

In the extension, we’ve got a picture window, which is a window seat. And I kind of looked at it went to sort of pretend sit on it and thought, hang on a minute. it’s way higher. my legs are dangling off this. This is not right. I mentioned it to the builders, sent them a message.

The next day, Fergie in the morning came up and I said, we’ve got to sort out the picture window. He said, What do you mean? The picture window looks perfect to me. And I said, no, there was a problem. The bricks, the wrong level. And I went down and they’d fixed it within the first 20 minutes of coming on site.

They’d literally,They’d taken those bricks away. They made it exactly the right height. And Fergie was like, well, there’s no problem. No, because they fixed it. So having them on site and living on site, was good in that way because you just spot things you go, hang on a minute.

That is at the wrong height. This door doesn’t open properly. One thing I love about our new space is my larder. I created this larder. our old house has only ever had three owners. The original family, the family we bought it from and then us. We’re incredibly lucky that we have all this wonderful, well I love it, old wood panelling that goes all the way down the hallway.

We’ve got the lovely old staircase And so I wanted to keep that, even though we were going for a very modern kitchen, I wanted to keep that feeling. of, integrating the house. And so we used to have this in the corridor, a little larder. It was part of the features of these original houses.

So I wanted a bigger one right in the heart of our new kitchen. that was really important to, keep the feel. And, I actually chatted to you guys because we built a new larder, it was brand new, but I designed it to look old. then we had this big dilemma of, it’s pine, how do we make it fit the original house?

I got in touch with Amy and I was like, do you know anybody? What do I do? And I ended up with a French polisher and found this amazing guy called Phil who usually does Woburn Abbey, Wigmore Hall, works for Paul Smith. And it was my indulgence of this project.

Fergie’s like, we don’t have the budget. I was like, I’m going to find the budget to make this larder,

look as if it’s always been there. It looks like something out of a National Trust property. It’s only tiny, but It just brings me such joy to have it there in the heart of the house. In the original drawings, it was a laundry cupboard. What joy would that bring you? But a larder. Sorry, you can hear my passion for it.

Amy: love it.

Jane: We’re all about the larders.

Nikki: All about the larders. 100%.

It’s a feature of the house. It’s a feature of the kitchen.

Amy: Oh, I love

that. And it’s such a tidy larder. I’m very impressed. I saw a glimpse of it earlier.

Nikki: I did buy a lot of baskets. There’s a lot of wicker baskets in there.

Jane: How far through the project were you when you suddenly felt like, hang on a minute, and what were the tell tale signs that things were maybe not going quite as you had hoped?

Paul: I think it was around the time it was after the building had completed. And when they started to fit the kitchen, right? So there were things that didn’t fit. And some of those were actually the problems with the supplier of the kitchen, like we got two microwaves instead of a microwave and an oven, for example,

I think that’s when it started, when they started to fit things in there. that was the time they had a lot of jobs and they seem to take their eye off the ball. We’ve got one legacy here, there’s a panel that joins the work surface to the ovens and it’s actually fitted upside down.

So the rough edge is on the top. But that’s all built in and fitted now. So how do you undo that?that, that’s as a result for me of rushing and trying to balance too many jobs. I would say we saw that around halfway through and that was around April time.

Amy: I think it’s also quite tricky, isn’t it? Because in the residential contractor world, they have their demolition and build team, they’re quite, efficient. let’s get in, do the thing. And then there’s a whole other team that starts doing the first fix and the second fix and the more technical side of things.

So I think it might also be that second team might be busier, they’re trying to

juggle, aren’t they?

Paul: I think you’re probably right because during the initial phases, at one stage, there were six of them here, especially when they were pouring concrete It seemed to be very labor intensive. But then, as you move to the second fixed stage, there was never more than two, maybe three here at the time.

And these weren’t specialists, these were general builders, Doing a bit of everything. And I think that’s one of the reasons why the finishing wasn’t quite as we expected it..

Nikki: I think our one bit of advice to people is, well, I don’t know, everybody’s going to be different and you will get builders who are very good at doing lots and lots of things. But I would say the one thing I did do was I made sure that when we got the flooring done, the person we bought the floor from installed the floor.

That is what they do. They install floors. When, They were saying, Oh, well, we can make those cupboards for you. No, I got a carpenter to come and do it.

And the things that we’re not happy with, for example, I would say, get a kitchen fitter, the person you buy your kitchen from, to fit your kitchen, because they know that kitchen inside out.

I wish we’d got an expert to lay our patio because our patio is not quite as level as it should be. most people who sell you stuff, will have someone who will be able to do it. They will come, they will have to work around your builders, but I would say that is my regret.

Take home from this. Painting and decorating. Their painter and decorator was not an expert.

Jane: That’s not where you want to be cutting corners, is it? Butit’s really interesting because that’s the kind of potluck of having a main contractor, isn’t it? Because,we’ve done obviously quite a lot of projects and

I want to know. The person that’s coming to do the joinery. I want to know that they have their own company, that that’s what they do every day, sometimes it can feel like, for your clients, You’ve made everything specialist, you know, you’ve made it more complicated because you’re bringing all these people in, but like you said, the alternative is just pot luck, really, you’re, you like your main contractor and you’re trusting that they are going to send a person that has the skills to do the job.

And what’s so sad is sometimes they do send somebody and it’s like, wow, they’re amazing. They’ve just like totally solved the problem for us. And they’re really great at what they do. But when you’re having that conversation, you just can’t, when they’re saying that thing to you, it’s fine, our guy can do that.

you don’t have any verification for that. Sometimes it will work out, but like you experienced, sometimes they’re not going to send along their best people.

And that’s when things start to go wrong, isn’t it?

Nikki: Yeah, we got to a stage where they were supposed to do some exterior work put some fence panels up, do some other bits and pieces, and I got some bespoke fencing panels because the wall needed them and a cedar bench that floats on the wall, I just thought, I’m not going to trust them.

they said, Oh, we can come and do it. And I said, no. I found somebody else, someone I know that I’ve worked with for years and years who came around, did that. they actually did it a lot later than the builder would have done it, but I know that I’ve got exactly what I wanted and I trusted.

And I just could not trust their finish on things was just not right. I mean, we’ve had so many things we’ve had to fix. Guttering, leaking bathroom. We did a bathroom at the same time. And it was the third time that they sent an expert mastic man to sort the butt.

And you’re like, well, why did it take Three times to sort this. Why didn’t you just pay this person first of all to sort it?

Jane: Yeah.

yeah, there’s a hierarchy of problem solvers that need to come in. it’s really interesting. I think it’s such an interesting Concept of hiring separate trades to do particular tasks, because I, you just feel more confident that that person is being contracted to do a very specific task for you, like you’re floating seat.

You could have that conversation with the person and say, I want it like this. I want it to look like this. Whereas when you’re in the middle of a build, those get to have that conversation before they start doing the thing. What has it got to look like?

what is the standards that are expected from this? So there’s a bit of a, you know, they turn up and then they’re already making it and they don’t have any kind of contract or instructions

from you. I think it’s also about ownership because when you’ve got

Amy: when you’ve got the tiler coming in to do the tiles, they’re taking ownership over their work. And when it gets to the point where it’s like, Oh, so what do you want? Then in a way you’re taking the responsibility of what you want them to make.

Nikki: Yeah, I mean, they were on a lot of things. The earlier stuff, they were good. I mean, my larder, I’m happy with.

So yes, anyway, I’ll try not to dwell too much on it.

Amy: I guess which part has been the most stressful is it the aftermath actually, and just trying to, solve these snagging or was it during the process?

Nikki: For me, the second part of the project, from the fitting onwards and then the subsequent snagging, seems to be the most stressful because there were lots of things that were not going to plan for various reasons, one of the things that’s really important here is communication, communication between us and them, but also between them and their HQ.

Paul: We’d be doing work, they’d be halfway through working there, like they’d start to lay the floor. We would get an invoice for the completed floor to pay and it’s kind of like do you guys not talk to each other? We’re paying by completed milestone stage and That is not a completed milestone.

So we’re not paying it, right? So that’s definitely what I found anyway,

Nikki: Yeah. One thing we haven’t talked about is spreadsheets.

Tell us about your spreadsheets, Fergie.

Paul: you think about a company, I guess I went into chief financial officer mode for the company, just tracking every spend. So for example, Nikki and her Larder vision, it’s like, well, Where does that fit into the cashflow? Nikki, let’s figure that out sort of thing. but that actually helped keep us sane and let us, understand exactly where we were financially with the project. we took the original schedule they provided us with all the different tasks, we took the prices against those and then we just tracked them, tracked when they were completed and paid, tracked any variation between quote And final invoice of which to be fair to them, there weren’t many other than stuff that we’d asked them to do.

And that just meant that we kept on top of things at every stage of the project, we knew exactly where we stood. So there was no chance of us, overspending or running out of money.

Never underestimate the power of a good spreadsheet. I

say,

Amy: Yeah.

Jane: we’re all spreadsheet lovers.

Amy: we should get t shirts with that.

Paul: absolutely.

Nikki: But it’s so good, isn’t it? Because when you were saying that project was quite chaotic. You’ve got two, you know, whether they’ve done the work, getting invoices before things are finished. And having it tracked like that just gives you the confidence to go back to them and say, hang on a minute,

Jane: That’s not due yet. That’s not finished. you can see where you are with the payments. otherwise you’re in this free fall where you’re not quite sure how much is left in the bank. You might be okay. but you just don’t know. And that is definitely stress making, isn’t it?

Paul: Yeah, no, it does help.

Talking of stress. I don’t, I mean, the stress has been off the scale. It is very stressful. I think living on site, trying to juggle things. I actually have an office at the bottom of my garden. The builders were fantastic every day. They worked out how I was going to get.

Nikki: to the bottom of the garden and built me little walkways. And then other days I had to come out The front of the house and whatever to get there. But you know, they were great. All that kind of stuff was absolutely brilliant. But the level of stress I think on one of your podcasts, I heard somebody say something like, I’d chosen my door fittings, or maybe it was light fittings four years before I bought things. If you can do that, just do it because you are having to make so many decisions about light fittings, bathroom fittings, everything all at the same time and all before you think you have to, because you have to decide where your light switches are going. Way earlier than you think you do because then you’ve got the plastering and everything else So there’s a lot of things that you have to make decisions about.

I think I’m still recovering. I have? Post traumatic renovation disorder When I see an email, to do with the house It does stress me out because it’s just, when is it going to end? You know, it does keep going quite a bit.

But on the positive side, We have this amazing space. I have an office at the bottom of my garden. Fergie will testify. I’m very rarely in the office at the bottom of my garden because I’m sitting at the kitchen table because we’ve got a picture window looking out over the garden. We’ve got the bifolds looking out over the garden.

We’ve got this beautiful kitchen. We’ve got my wonderful larder. We’ve got a window seat. You know, why do I want to be anywhere else? you will find me sitting at the kitchen table because it is just heavenly.

Amy: that’s

Jane: That must be so nice after having years of this cold drafty place and now you’re really making the most of it.

Nikki: it will be great

Amy: So, I guess just to wrap up can I ask both of you just to share one top tip

Paul: I think for me I would use the experts for the areas to do stuff. So if you’re having a kitchen, you’re buying it from a kitchen company, let them fit it because that’s what they do and that’s all they do.

Amy: How about you, Nikki?

Nikki: Oh, my top tip would be, oh, I’m trying to think of so many. I’ve

Amy: you can say more

than one.

Nikki: Follow your passion for what it is. if you’re doing an extension, it is basically a box on the back of your house. What I love more than anything, obviously. It is my larder and my window seat.

Those were two extra things that I fought hard with the designers to make sure that they happened in the way that I wanted them to happen. So have those things that that bring you joy.

Amy: We’ve

Nikki: got all the neighbors coming around

weekend because they’ve all, you know, they’ve had to live, breathe and exist us having skips and lorries and everything. And some of them haven’t seen what we’ve done yet. So it’s a chance to, to, to get them round. And we’ve got new neighbors as well next door who are starting building work.

So that’s interesting. But get everybody around and just say, thank you for supporting us.

you know,

Amy: Yeah, Amazing.

Jane: That sounds great.

Amy: Thank you so much for sharing your story and also for sharing the highs and the lows. Thank you so much guys.