Amy: Welcome to Stories from Site, the podcast for renovation enthusiasts. I’m Amy Dohnalek and together with my co host Jane Middlehurst, we chat with home renovators about the roller coaster that is renovation.

In this week’s episode, we talk with Leo and Ru, a renovation duo comprising an architect and interior designer.

What initially began as a professional project quickly evolved into a new exciting chapter for their family.

Discover valuable insights from this incredible couple on transforming a site into a dream home.

 

Amy: So welcome Leo and Ru, great to be chatting with you about your new family home and the journey you went on to get there. First up, we’d love to hear a bit about your respective backgrounds and how that influenced the project.

Ru: Hi there. Nice to meet you both. My name is Rupert Scott. I am the director and owner of a small architecture practice, Open Practice Architecture, as well as doing a variety of different types of projects for clients, we’re also architect developers and a part of a growing number of architects in London. who are developing curious small backland sites and creating new buildings and spaces and communities within them.

Amy: And I’m Leo Wood, Ru’s wife, and I now work as an interior designer. Five, six years ago, I set up a little practice called Kinder Design, and I actually got into interior design through the home project that Ru and I built six, seven years ago, the gin stillery where I learned on the job and fell in love with the process of renovating and designing a home. So now I work as an interior designer for clients as well as supporting Ru in our own house building projects

Amazing. So you’re basically a power couple. I feel

Ru: It’s so inaccurate.

Amy: sounds like it.I guess what would be interesting is to start at the beginning and explain, like, did you find the site? Did someone come up with this plot? how did you go about the very initial start of the project?

Ru: This was a site that we bought through auction and we’ve been looking for another site to develop, and there’s always a bit of a process to that, so that process involves you know, the overview and seeing in principle what we could get on it, doing all the due diligence in terms of planning and legals and all of that. Essentially, it was a former sort of mechanics garage down an old trackway past old muse houses. And what was up for sale was the mechanics garage and the track leading up to it. So that’s how we got it. We, we bid on auction and were successful in that.

 

Leo: It was a while ago because the process is always long that was in august 2017.

Amy: And so what did you then have to do after the legals and actually getting the site? Were you doing the design and planning running parallel with that process?

Ru: Yeah, I mean, it’s,it’s such a journey. Sothe main task, of course, first of all, is getting planning permission, which in this case was for the demolition of the mechanics garage and building of a new house. And obviously that has a lot of requirements, conversations with the council, but also local community engagement and because it’s a plot which is surrounded by other houses it’s just super important to make sure that everyone is okay with what you’re doing and to take on board any concerns they may have. We had an advantage with this one, which is the new build house that we have built, and were proposing at the time was exactly the same footprint as what the mechanics garage was and the same height and volume. So it wasn’t in that sense a challenge. We weren’t doing anything super controversial in that way.

The other thing we did was to kind of rearrange little sort of sort of access issues rights of way. We did some little land swap pieces with some of the neighbors to straighten out the boundaries to create routes through that didn’t previously exist. So all of that was part of that early journey. We also made a deal with the mechanic who was here before, he needed to stay for another sort of nine months a year. So whilst we were doing all of that, he stayed we continued his lease on the property. So it kind of worked well for everyone, but

that meant that by the time we’d gone through all of that journey, I can’t remember exact dates, but it was at least a year, maybe even a year and a half before we had all everything in place, ready to start the build.

Amy: I think people will be surprised to know just how long these things take because I’m guessing that you had to do a change of use in terms of planning. So what that means for our listeners is, you know, it was a light industrial building and it’s being changed to a residential property, which means that there’s hurdles to jump.

Did you feel like this was part of the course and you’re prepared for it?

Ru: Yeah, I mean, in this one, essentially, it was a new build house, it was, strictly speaking, a change of use because we kept some of the rear and side walls, which meant that that’s in terms of planning terms, how it was seen, but we’re, designing a completely new house. It is always surprising how long these things take and they don’t always take that long.

Sometimes you can have a clear run and get through the whole planning process in terms of pre planning and so forth within, five or six months. It’s not always that way, but yeah, you do have to be patientAnd prepared for it to take longer of course. Lewisham as a council, which where this, was relatively straightforward and they were supportive and they were quite good. Some of the other boroughs we’ve been working with of late have been more challenging. They have different requirements in terms of financial viability assessments and all of this type of stuff that can actually elongate the process.

Leo: I just wanted to addthat when we bought this site we didn’t buy it knowing that we would necessarily move our family here Because halfway through the project, COVID happened and life as we knew it changed, we had a bit of a paradigm shift as a family. We were living in Whitechapel in the Gin Distillery, which we’d previously built. And so maybe this sort of feeling of needing to be quick and to move, you know, personally as a family was not something we were feeling at the beginning, because we thought it might be a development project rather than somewhere that we moved to. So that shift came later.

Amy: Interesting. So do you feel like it changed how you designed the home when that shift happened?

Ru: I think the fundamentals of the design were similar in terms of the space planning, number of rooms that sort of thing. But obviously when you start to design it for your own home, you do get more particular about the materials whose rooms who’s the one thing you know, how the bed spaces would work and you just have that particularity of your own family.

And of course, this isone of the many areas in which Leo’s super involved in the project andthat sort of interior spaceof creating the home from the house.

Amy: And Leo, when did you get on board? Because I guess what’s interesting is you’re also the client, but you’re inputting in the interiors. can you explain how that process worked?

Leo: I mean, I think that how we’ve worked on the two projects that we’ve done together so far is that, the first stage, the finding of the site, the planningthe space design, the big moves, Ru takes full responsibility and, is brilliant at all of that.

I think the shift comes probably once the project is on site or about to be on site, when we start to think about the material choices I think that’s when I first, get more involved. I think I’m quite good at knowing, products and suppliers that are on the market and, materials that I think could work to achieve, the mood that we want the feeling, you know, to the budget that we need.

So we started the build in 2019, it’s only then that I got more involved. I didn’t come to this project or the gin distillery as a seasoned designer, I have learned and grown on this job.

But you know, the opportunity to learn how to design through building your own home, not only once, but twice you know, really grateful for that. And, I’ve learned a lot through this opportunity that Ru kind of made happen for us.

Jane: I’m interested to know with the two different projects you talk about the materiality and learning through that process. Was therea different agenda or learnings that you’ve taken from your first project that you brought into this house?

Leo: . For me, from a design and aesthetic sense, when we were building the gin distillery, I had no prior experience of being a designer. So everything was kind of totally subconscious based on just taste and instinct, like that would look nice. Why don’t we do that? And then through the coach house, as I’ve become more conscious and been learning about what makes good design and how to design a home, it’s recognizing the design principles and the taste that I have and that I bring to a project.

So this idea of the building materials being these sort of neutral, natural materials, very simple palette, and then bringing in color through furniture and nice things in the house, that was something that happened, totally instinctively at the gin distillery and then became a conscious principle. when we were building thecoach house.

Ru: But there is a, there is a interesting corollary to that from the architect’s perspective, which is where architects in general, and I think for good reason, you sort of say there’s a hierarchy of materials within this project, let’s make sure that it’s got a comprehensive and paired back palette and the cabinetry is this material or floors of this, or perhaps it’s more abstract that you sort of say, well, in this corner of the building, it’s 20 percent blue and here it’s a hundred percent blue.

So there’s this sort of rationale. but often that rationale can make a great and clear structure and backdrop to what a building is. But when you do use that instinct and someone like Leo, who’s amazing at coming in and saying, how do you then occupy this, make it feel. inviting and warm and not too uptight and so forth. And that’s something as an architect, architects generally, we’re not sometimes tuned into as we, we could be. And where interior design can be at its best is where interior designers can work with architects and soften that diagram.

The thing that we do in our practice that we don’t use too hard of materials. We love wood. We love to use things that perhaps do have a softness to them but of course a precision to them as well. But actually I found working with Leo’s got an amazing eye for material and fabric and also reclaimed things. That collision of those two things together is. At best, a wonderful thing.

I

Amy: think also it’s a challenging project, isn’t it? Because I think family homes just have so much stuff. So you’ve got to get that real balance between being able to put stuff away so you can’t see it, but use it. But also, like you say, add that warmth and coziness and allow family life to happen.

I just think it’s quite a hard thing to actually do in practice. How did you go about, designing for

your family? I guess.

Ru: We have got more storage here than we had at the gin distillery and thought about some of the spaces that we are lacking in terms of kids stuff and coat storage and all of that. But isn’t it interesting? On the one hand we all wish there was less stuff and that’s a good exercise and living more minimally and so forth, but equally it’s important, I think, within any space to try to not be too uptight about it and to allow family life to unfold.

And when you design, houses, with this sort of concept of a hierarchical diagram and shadow gaps and so forth, to be accepting about that is tougher, but we’ve definitely done a bit of self correction on that. We do have two wonderful girls and it’s super important tonot impose a dictatorial design state

Amy: Yes.

Leo: I think the storage of stuff is about the most important thing in good design. And it’s so kind of unglamorous, but I think if you get it wrong, you severely compromise a project. And oftenif I’m working with clients, making an inventory of stuff, right, what have you got that needs to be stored in your bath room?

And you have to resolve that as an essential. And not doing that is a big mistake, I think. But it’s not very sexy,

Amy: No, I love that, to do an inventory. That is a problem that needs to be resolved.

Leo: But I think Ru touched on this sort of dichotomy between, if you work in design or interior design, you’re in the art of buying and sourcing furniture and nice things, and you’ve got your clients things. But also you know, I think it’s important not to be too materialistic and not to get too attached to stuff.

When you’re sourcing reclaimed secondhand vintage pieces, you’re shipping them in and shipping them out and just not to get too attached necessarily to these kind of items of furniture.

I mean, I’ve been known to get a knock on the door, say, Leo’s out, and someone will come and they say, well, I’m just here to get the lamp. And I’ll say, well, which lamp? And then I’ll look down at the floor and there’ll be not just. a lamp by the door ready to go.

Ru: It’ll be like my lamp, which has been given away because for some sort of, you know, it’s like, well, sorry, who are you?

Amy: That’s so funny.

Ru: This has been known.

When you’re making a project and you’re imagining all these spaces, I think we’ve said it before, but you don’t draw your architect’s plans with the pile of letters that come home from school, for example,

Jane: You don’t put that in the drawings and so there’s this vision of your future life in this future space where you might do things differently and you might be a slightly different person that puts things away. So I think it’s just really interesting, because I’m imagining my future self in my future house and it definitely doesn’t have junk everywhere. So to do that inventory, is kind of a very interesting process because you’re staring your life in the face really Including the stuff that is undesirable.

Leo: I find this really interesting because as an interior designer, if I’m working on a project with an architect, I bring the, no, but hang

on. We’ve got the, the letters, we’ve got the kids’ coat, we’ve got the Sainsbury’s shop. It’s that really practical every day, use and kit that I think sometimes does get forgotten by architects because they are thinking sort of big picture, big vision. And I think that kind of granular interaction and how your client is really going to use the space is quite magic if you can add that into a project.

So I find that really interesting and I feel I can really add value in those kinds of ways.

Amy: What do you do with scooters? That’s my big one. I just, I don’t want to see them. they’re just always everywhere.

Leo: Hang them up.

Jane: hang them up. I’ve never done that

Ru: It’s

Leo: Give them away.

Ru: The scooter by the handle and it swings around and bangs you in the ankles.

Jane: Oh Yeah.

Leo: So lethal. The stunt ones.

Anyway, I’m sure we should be talking about architecture and not scooters. Maybe it’s one and the same.

 

Amy: So I guess it seems like you seem very calm, you seem very content with where you’re at in the new home. You bought the site in 2017, you’ve just had your final photos taken, so I guess you’re feeling like it’s finished, in inverted

Ru: Yes.

Amy: In hindsight, what was the trickiest part?

Ru: Okay. So the overriding answer is no, it wasn’t easy. There are so many parts to where it’s difficult, where it’s stressful. So just to talk you through that journey So yeah, we sort of cracked on with building. at some point, I think, during 2019. And of course, we always planned, luckily, to do it in two phases. And those two parts were shell and core and then fit out. The shell and core sort of period was coinciding with COVID. So when we had that break, we were going to have a break of say, three months and ended up being a break of about a year for various reasons. So that was a huge challenge in itself. But listen, I mean, the reality isif you’re building a house with the amount of decisions you have to make and each and every one of those moving parts can go well or they can you know, they can be a problem, something you need to resolve, something that wasn’t as it should have been.

Maybe there was a subcontractor problem. For example, we have one with the stairs here and we went round and round in circles for a period of time. We had some problems with the bricks when they first arrived. You know,if I kind of recall all of the different parts of the journey that we’ve had and all of the things that we’ve done in that sense, you would never embark on a journey if you knew. All the things you’re going to have to do and everything it’s going to involve, but like all great adventures, right? You don’t go on a huge trek knowingall the difficult things you’re going to have to climb over, the cold you’re going to be at night, whatever it might be. And it’s kind of similar, you can look back andbe super glad that you’ve done it. You can arrive somewhere very special, but I honestly don’t think there’s any grand designs, building project that doesn’t have those hurdles, that’s why that is a great show. Because, you know,

Amy: almost in every case, even if the result is great, they will always have that narrative arc that they’ve been through. And what is a, top tip for coping with those hurdles? What would you say has helped you?

Ru: I think you just need to try to keep a little bit steady as you go through. And I think to be honest, that’s partly not jumping ahead of yourself as well when things are going well. It’s a sort of measuredness or an approach that you need to have to it. You say, look, this is okay, at the moment.

And really great that this has kind of worked out. So equally, when things don’t work out, you need to sort of respond in a similar way of not having a knee jerk reaction. Obviously,how you respond to people and how you deal with people is, very important.

As I think as an architect, you sort of learn that on the job over many, many years about the best way to respond when things aren’t going well. And you sort of learn in each and every interaction, each every moment about how to deal with that. I guess you just learn also from experience that More often than not, things work out okay in the end but it does take a lot of work sometimes to kind of resolve that issue and to get over the line.

Leo: I would say choose the right contractor. I think that’s the most important decision you’re going to make and you know, obviously that doesn’t necessarily mean the cheapest contractor, but that means doing your due diligence, you know, asking previous clients if they’ve had a good experience.

And I think as well, one of the things that Ru’s always been good at is making sure there’s a really healthy contingency, if you’ve got 300, 000, your contract sum should not be 300, 000. It needs to be. A significant amount less with a very healthy contingency because there are inevitably going to be unexpected costs. And I think that will help when you get the bumps if you’ve already, in a way, allowed for it through a contingency. And I thinkif you takethe experience of building a house, for Ru and I, you know, we now work in the profession and we’ve done it twice, it is stressful. I think that it is for everyone. And I think that people doing it who don’t understand the industry or how it works need support. And that’s where I think it’s so interesting what you guys are doing with home notes because it’s, Incredibly difficult. it’s worth investing in support.

That doesn’t mean full architectural services, but it might mean some consultation or some handholding or asking friends like it is never straightforward, quick, easy. So, it’s not surprising that people have a difficult time with building and renovating.

Jane: Yeah, I love that.

How long have you been in the house now? Have you forgotten all this stress?

Ru: I think that’s one tip in a sense is that it definitely takes a year as an architect developer, as designer developers to, to have that feeling of, of it changing from what was a project, into just where you live and some of the the journey and the anguish and the sheer sort of sort of labor of it kind of drifts into a memory rather than a kind of living present. And that does take time. If someone has just finished building their house and they move in and they’re sort of feeling that I suppose in a sense it can be a bit anti climatical and it can also be a space that you worry about too much and all of these things. But a year later, things soften. The experience becomes much more about the everyday, the letters on the floor, the kids running in and out and so forth. But also that sort of magic through the interiors that kind of continues to happen. So I’ve seen Leo, as you talked about, with bits of furniture, it’s not all ready to go.

Leo: You know, you’ve obviously bringing your previous furniture and then maybe sell some of that and bring in other things that sort of evolution of the building continues to happen. And then finally the garden. You know, the outside spaces, often building sites can be pretty rough and ready around the building itself, like a scar on the landscape and okay, you can get rid of the rubbish and so forth But it can feel pretty brutal But of course nature plays a huge a huge part in that you know things kind of get in the garden growing and getting plants and that kind of just that sense that the building is becoming part of its environment rather than something that’s landed in it. Yeah.

I mean, it was basically a seven year project on and off with three phases of the build, having finally photographed the house, a few months ago. Ru and I are just like, we don’t want to think about anything to do with the house for at least six, nine, 12 months. Having said that I have already started a to do list

Ru:

Leo: next year,

when.

what I’m saying is we’re taking a breath, but I could still tell you 10 things that I’d like to do in the house. And, you know, our kids are gunning for a complete bedroom overhaul. she’s hassling us, change the color, change the beds, whatever. And we’re just like, okay, next year. So, you know, the living house and the home is never finished, even when it’s finished, I find that quite

stressful, but also, it’s been such a long project, we’re just taking a break right now, and,there will be changes and tweaks, in the coming years, but that’s what it’s all about, right?

It’s never frozen in time.

Amy: But also I think if you can work together and still be married at the end, I feel like in itself is like a incredible accomplishment, because I think it is challenging. I mean, just the intersection of your own professions. You know, it all is coming into the pot.

Jane:

Leo: I think it was interesting what you were saying, Amy, because obviously before we had finished. I remember you asking us how we were feeling and I think we were both quite stressed because we hadn’t finished and it’s this feeling of, well, it’s our home, but actually it’s work and it’s a project and it’s this thing where we’ve just got a list of stuff to do.

And it seems so strange saying that because you’re living in this beautiful space that you’ve got to design. But on the flip side, you’re actually living in a work project When your home is your home, and we have finally now reached that point seven years in,

Ru: Getting those photos done was definitely a sort of we should be celebrating moment. That felt like a kind of important marker.

Jane: Ru, one last question for you. If there’s somebody in a similar position who wants to go about looking for a site, what would you recommend?

Ru: actually it’s something I help people do now is to assess and see what’s possible on the site and offer them that overviewfrom a client’s perspective where all things considered, is this a good one to buy? What might be able to achieve on the site?

What is the kind of red flags or the other things that need to be taken into consideration? that’s an important part of it, as well as, of course, you know, that sort of architects role after someone’s bought a site and say, okay, how can we develop this? How can we take this through the planning process?

What’s the strategy here? What’s the public consultation and so forth? So that’s, that’s something that I can definitely now how people do.

Amy: A great way to de risk a process that’s got quite a lot of risk in it, Okay.Thank you so much, guys. Thanks for being with us and sharing your journey.

Ru: Thanks so much

for having

us

Leo: Thank you so much.

Jane: And if you would like to see photos of Leo and Ru’s projects, then you can head to our website at homenotes.co/storiesfromsite. We’ll see you next time.