Amy: Welcome to Stories from Site, the podcast for renovation enthusiasts. I’m Amy Dohnalek and together with my co host Jane Middlehurst, we chat with home renovators about the roller coaster that is renovation.

Today we’re joined by Bethan, who shares the inspiring journey of transforming her family’s Victorian home.

We explore the value of having a dedicated architect throughout the process, balancing budgets and maintaining the quality of the build, as well as the leaps of faith involved in the process.

So welcome to the podcast, Bethan. Really great to have you with us. I feel like it’s an exciting moment to talk to you because we kind of know you from the beginning of your project, when you did one of our courses, so it would be great to just hear how you started and what was the project?

Bethan: Yeah, soyeah, the project is that we, renovated the dining, kitchen, kind of external, so probably like 50 percent of the ground floor of our property, and all the externals, we concluded the project just over nine months ago, but we probably started thinking about it two years before that.

So it’s coming up to three years since we, start looking at the home notes platform. Ultimately I used it in the planning, like, how do I do the project? And I signed up to, the courses around

How do you write a great brief? We worked with Delve Architects for our project. Sowe chose them as the architect and used less of the content after that because I was more reliant on them as the partner.

But yeah, really for framing that up from what was our project. And I think really stepping back and taking the time. And I think the bit that resonated with me the most when we did that was me and my wife making sure that we actually had the same brief and where the deviations of the brief were and how you align before you’re trying to communicate that to anyone else was a really valuable part and really documenting it quite significantly helped with how we progressed from that point

Jane: So how did you find Delve Architects?

Bethan: So, ultimately, I looked through a lot of the architects that had been listed in Don’t Move, Improve. They focus on, they actually do quite a lot of work in the childcare space as well as residential properties, and, we are a family of five, so we are, renovating our property to be suitable for me, my wife, and our three children that are all primary school age at the moment.

And soit felt like a very good match in terms of the types of projects that they do, and what we were looking to achieve that kind of balance of aesthetics and practicality, which is always an interesting line to tread when you’re, kind of trying to get to an outcome in a project.

But we did go out to, four or five, different architects. With three of them, we got through to the stage of them proposing a brief to us about how they would approach the project and then we chose Delve. So we did go through a bit of a process in terms of how we decided our, architects to work with.

Jane: When you hired them, was the process of what you were going to go through with them and how the whole project was going to work? Was that clear to you? Were you kind of comfortable or was there a small leap of faith as well?

Bethan: So I thinkthey do take you through a process like, you know, of what they’re going to do at what stage, but I think ultimately this is the first time for me working at that level of detail with an architect. So you understand it but you don’t practically know what that’s going to really look like.

What does a high level design look like versus a detailed design actually is kind of to an extent words to you. You could imagine it but you don’t actually know the reality of it. So I felt like I was taking a leap of faith on two things. One is their historic projects and did I

ultimately like the outcomes that they’d achieved in projects that they’d done before, that feels like it gives you confidence. And then do you have a dynamic with the actual architect themselves, because you’re going to have to work with them closely for a significant period of time. And actually, I think ultimately the combination of those two things were the things that got us to our decision about who to work with.

it’s interesting because we get quite a few people who find getting in touch with architects and actually getting replies from architects quite tricky actually, more than maybe, initially anticipated. Did you experience any of that?

I definitely experienced that. I think I probably reached out to in total, maybe 20 architects. And I would say that probably only 10 actually replied and then a set of people replied saying that their portfolio was full. or the project didn’t quite match what they were looking for.

And so then I think there was a six where we had a little bit more detailed conversation and we narrowed it down to three that we got to the stage where we actually had a proposal and a cost and then how it would work. But it felt like a much bigger funnel than I was expecting it to need to be in terms of the volume of people you reached out to, versus the volume of actual responses and engagement that you got.

Amy: And I think I can take people by surprise because it feels like, well, I’ve got project, why would you not want that? Or, you know, can seem a bit, counterintuitive, really,why that happens, why that experience exists.

Jane: I guess it’s probably because, residential architects, quite a lot of them just have small teams, so there’s only so many projects you can take on a year, and they’re quite a long commitment, aren’t they? So,there’s a slower turnover than you would expect, especially with the smaller practices.

Bethan: I think it’s also quite hard to navigate that balance isn’t there because there are larger practices that say they do residential and ultimately they only want to do full new build residential.

They don’t really want the kind of smaller refurbished smaller it’s still a very significant amount of money to you but ultimately in their context smaller projects. So you really have to start a conversation with people to see if you’re a match for their their

portfolio and realize that is a kind of a matching process rather than an infinite capacity that these architects have.

Jane: Yeah, absolutely. So, this journey that you went on with the architects, was the project that you thought you were making, is that what turned out or was there things that were turned up in the creative process?

Bethan: So I would say the kind of bones of the project, the kind of key component parts were what we expected, but the reason we wanted to engage with the design-led architect was to create it in a way that maybe wouldn’t be described as just a classic family kitchen diner extension.

We wanted to create something that felt different. And we knew we had,some tricky parameters that kind of meant that it needed a bit of a creative thinking just around kind of how just very practically, we didn’t end up with a room in the middle of the house that had no windows.

Because you’re at risk of, if we just had gone across the back, that’s what we would end up with.

Amy:

Jane: I guessyou said, you know, a design led architect, you get something out of that layout and, the strategy for the plan. But then a really fun part is, the detailing and the materiality, when that comes to life post planning.

Do you think you could talk to us a little bit about that process?

Bethan: Yes. It’s one thing that we used, an architect supported us for the whole process. So when you do get a proposal, you obviously have the choices about how many stages they’re going to kind of come through the process with you. They supported us, through detailed design and onsite.

In the detailed design process, I felt there was a lot of choice on your side as the client, but you’re kind of being presented with an already curated set of solutions rather than feeling like you’re infinitely looking at all options of kitchen.

That’s a kind of, on the internet. Um,and therefore we were able to work with different, like we worked with smile plastics for our, our work top in a part of our kitchen and in our utility room, which is a recycled plastic product. Actually the one we’ve gone for is made from yogurt pots.

You can see the little bits of foil In the kind of finish. So it kind of looks like from a distance has that kind of terazzo look, but ultimately when you touch it, it’s a plastic finish. those feel like the products we would have never found.

We also have a birch ply wall finished dining area to define the space between the main kitchen and the dining space that is obviously one open plan space, but how you try and make it not feel like a giant white space. We went with a different wall treatment with exposed beams in the dining area.

Those are the things I just don’t think we would have had any of the confidence to do. And also, but if you do make those decisions, I think you do, kind of have to have that relationship with the architect for the whole build. I wouldn’t have had the confidence to explain to the builder how to do that.

And we needed, you know, We needed that continuity through the whole process because we were using a local builder that hadn’t done this before.

They’re not used to finishing birch ply. And so you have to decide where the expertise is that’s going to help you get to the finish that you’re hoping for.

Amy: And I know that you got your kitchen from Plykea,

Bethan: So Plykea did our kitchen and our utility room. in our dining pod that was made, with the birch ply that had been finished on the wall. So that was on site built. But they did our kitchen and utility room.

Jane: I think that’s such key point about doing anything that’s slightly different or slightly unusual. It’s quite tricky to manage that process with contractors and having somebody who can take those, decisions right from concept through to delivery is such a key aspect of having an architect with that skill set, because part of their job is toguide the contractor to how to use different materials and different finishes that they wouldn’t otherwise have used I think that really shows in the finish of the project.

You can really see the quality, of the build. It’s such a beautiful space. Do you think there are any other points or, benefits of having that service all the way through?

Bethan: I think,

There’s something about time,

likeSo if you’re going to manage a project of this scale, there is lots of time that is needed to manage it. The benefit of having the architect is that in a way they’re not a project manager, but they are helping you get through the project and advising you in lots of stages, even just some of the basic things like how do we find a structural engineer, or who should we use for building control?

They’ve already got a book of those people to make some of those more functional decisions quite quick, and also can really help you understand,work with cost people to manage that process early as well. So you can get visibility of cost quite early in your process.

And they really did manage the planning process for us as well. I was expecting to be much more heavily involved in but our relationship with our architect meant that they kind of took full ownership for that management of the planning process with Windsor, which is the council that we were managing that process with we are in a conservation area.

So there’s that, you know, that did have its kind of challenges we did have to make changes in planning related to that. So, actually,those processes feeling like they were just wholly managed. You know, me and my wife both have full time jobs and three children. there is only so much capacity, but I was going to say on the counter to that, actually. You still need to realize that

there is still a lot of time needed from you. I was working from home during the period of time that we were in the build. I was constantly working at this relationship with the builders where they could text me to check whether I was or wasn’t on a call, to come down and answer like the next question, because they just are, I am not necessarily sure how some of these processes worked when everyone was in the office all the time, because actually there really is kind of, constant,

questions, because things just come up on a daily basis that need answering. You have to have a process in which you’re going to answer that. So I think the architect helps in that some of more of those things anticipated. There is a natural cycle like a weekly meeting on site where you can go through lots of those things, but on the other side there still is a lot in the moment to kind of

answer and deal with as problems and challenges come up and new things get discovered.

Amy: Well, even in the design process, I think it’s surprising just how time consuming it is to make decisions on what you like or what works, what doesn’t even when you’re presented with options, which I think is great. And I love your way of seeing it as this curated,

presentation of,a trustworthy set of things, but even then you have to decide what you like. You have towork with the person

Bethan: you live with. you know, it’s, it’s tricky. Yeah, what you like and how far you’re willing to push yourself. I constantly felt like a little bit on a loop of we’ve decided to use a design architect to not get to the outcome that we would have got to if we tried to do this.

ourselves, and therefore what’s my boundary? Like, what is pushing me to somewhere that feels like, oh, I wouldn’t have made that decision myself, but that is a good decision for us and what we’re trying to achieve, relative to, actually no, that’s not our style and that’s not what we like.

I think you’re constantly calibrating between all of you as to how you can get to the best outcome. It’s ultimately the house that you’re going to live in at the end of this process.

Jane: Yeah. We’re currently going through that process ourselves cause we’re having an app developed and it’s so interesting being on the other side of a creative process.

I’d feel much more comfortable in an app development process. Cause that’s what I do as a day job. So I’d feel very happy doing that. That’s so interesting, isn’t it? it’s been quite hard to sign off because at the design stage, when you’re in a build project, once you signed off, we’re quite aware that it’s like. That’s it now, it’s getting built and it’s really hard to get any changes done after the contractor’s on site, of course there’s questions as you go through, but there’s that trepidation with the fact that it’s a solid physical thing and it’s very hard to update and change I think our developers were like, That’s the whole process.

Like we build this, but then you get to change it afterwards. You know, there’s going to be lots more iterations of this thing that you’ve made, which is true to a certain extent with houses, but it’s not quite as easy to switch out one thing for another, once you’ve got your steels in, for example.

Bethan: Yeah.

There are some very permanent decisions in that,in the house process. Yeah.

Jane: Yeah, so I guess

we’ve talked about a lot of the positives. is there anything that really surprised you about the process?

Bethan: I think if you’ve not been part of any of these kinds of processes before, you don’t have a sense of costs for the different services, I don’t think it’s a negative. I just think it’s something that you don’t understand coming into it.

And so it can feel quite a high proportion of your budget. You have to be constantly reminding yourself about what you’re getting out of that, relationship and that you’re comfortable that that is the right balance in your budget. I think just being clear on that because for all the good reasons that we’ve said this is going to get you to an outcome that you couldn’t have got to in another context.

I think it could be quite quick to say, oh my gosh, like nearly 20 percent of my budget might go in this place actually.that can feel kind of quite uncomfortable when it’s probably sums of money that outside of maybe buying your house originally is not kind of money you’re necessarily used to spending on that scale on a daily basis.

So it’s already quite a large undertaking, and then you’re like, what do I materially get for, this part of the investment, it’s less physical than buying a steel. You need to understand what your benchmarks are.What is the right level that you should be paying for that kind of service and reminding yourself the benefits that you’re getting from it.

I think that dynamic is really important because otherwise you can feel like, oh my gosh, that’s too much of my budget to be spending on it.

Amy: Do you feel like you had to coach yourself through that?

Bethan: Yes. That’s it. Because weighted cost, right, you’re paying more before you start.

The heaviest investment of your cost is likely to be in the detailed design phase.

And so you’re actually spending quite a lot of money before the spade has gone in the ground. And I think it’s just that weighting of costs and then you’re almost into retainer stage. Once you’re kind ofat the project rate and they’re coming in on a weekly basis, the big investment of costs is before you’ve started.

And I think it’s just that weighting is interesting to position with yourself meaning that now when we get to site, the number of changes that we’ll have to make, or we’ve done a lot of anticipation through that process, saving us money by being so well planned, it’s just that the investment of cost is kind of before you started.

Amy: yeah,

Jane: yeah, it’s quite nerve wracking, isn’t it?

And did the site process go smoothly? how was that experience for you?

Bethan: I mean, probably like anyone, we removed the layer of flooring and then found like we needed new, I think if you’re going to renovate a property that was built in 1890, then I think you kind of go into it knowing that there’s going to be a level of discovery on site. And for us that was kind of, decayed floor, floor joists was probably the main one and needing

ultimately to redo the whole floor for the section we were renovating. I think we were lucky that we also were able to balance that, like we’d assumed that we were going to have to dig like 2. 2 meter foundations and we actually only had to dig One point something.

So there was a very positive relationship with our builder that we were able to kind of take the benefits where there was a, element that hadn’t cost as much and we invest it in the floor, like net, we were still above what we’d forecasted at the beginning, but nothing too material that wasn’t within a contingency we had set aside, which I think is just critical to it, not being too stressful a process, at the time I think everyone is going to discover something however well planned you are before you get there.

Can I ask you on site, did it, feel like it helped having the architects there as the third party?

Yeah, so they were probably on site every week at the begining and then stretching out to two weeks at different points. We kind of varied it a little bit, depending on what there was to see and the pace that the builders had progressed. But I think that particularly in managing it had value in two ways.

It’s a second pair of very experienced eyes on what’s happening and ability to solve more generic problems or anticipate the things we need to decide next. But also the benefit of where you have chosen a finish that is not something that the builders are going to have experienced before, then you can have very much more detailed conversations about how that process is going to go and advise them as they go.

So I think it’s both the site visit, but also the builder was ringing the architect when they were getting to certain stages and having that conversation when it was relevant

Amy: Yeah.

Bethan: to make sure that we could get to the outcome. But I think overall, you’re part of all those discussions, so the investment of time from your, it’s not like it’s an advocate, you can’t kind of pass it over, as it were, to them to, you know, like you’re very much, it’s a trio, and I think there’s still quite a lot of onus on you to make those decisions, probably not more than I anticipated, but it doesn’t take away that responsibility.

They are another party to help you get to the outcome, not the ones driving it.

Amy: Well, I think what’s tricky is when you don’t have that architect having conversations, especially around payments or, works completed it can become quite emotional quite quickly I think.

Bethan: Yeah, and the other part that they led was an agreement on percentage completion with the builder. So at each of those site meetings, we paid on, like, we weren’t paying kind of a, on a pre agreed payment terms. We were paying based on a, what percentage completion on the items that were on the original contract.

So they did the original contract for us with the builder. And then also we’re able to kind of agree what the work packages were in that contract. And then we were agreeing like percentage completion against those work packages.

So I felt like I would have been very much dependent on the builder to be directing how to manage that process. which when it’s such a significant amount of money having a third person in that equation and you feeling like I have only paid for what’s been done made me feel like we wouldn’t end up in a situation where, it’s half built but I’ve paid 75 percent of the money to the builder already you hear those horror stories of someone’s left site, and actually it did protect, it felt like it was protecting us against that, as well.

Jane: What’s sad for the contractor is that even if they’re super honest, super on the ball, if you don’t have that third party verification as a client, how do you know?

Bethan: Yeah, we were really lucky with our builder. we were really happy with them. We had a, very positive, relationship with them through the period of time, but it’s still a process that you’ve never done.

And it was a builder that we’d never worked with before. So we were reliant on recommendations. but still you’re kind of, you feel like you’re going into the unknown.

With a significant investment talking about lots of things that you are definitely not an expert on as well.

So you’re bringing that kind of, is this the right way to do that? Or am I going to have a problem in four years time because this hasn’t been done correctly?

Amy: I think that increasingly people are feeling under pressure in terms of budgets And I think having an architect on board throughout the process becomes a tricky choice because you’re like, well, that could be a nicer kitchen,

Bethan: I think that’s true, and I thinkeven one of the architects we spoke to said based on our budget, we’d recommend that we only do the planning, designs, and approach.

And so I think, I think that is the tricky balance you’re trying to strike. Cause, you are like kind of balancing, is that going to get you to an outcome that’s worth that investment.

And I think there is a leap of faith in there. Jane, you said at one point that you can’t do this process twice. So we don’t really know whether we would have got to kind of where we are. And I think,the designs that, the architects did are great.

And I actually think some of the biggest benefits are in the, in the smaller things.

Jane: Absolutely in the detail. And I think in a way. What’s interesting is that The kind of value that it brings is experienced much further down the line. when you’re talking, about the experience of the space, those small details can add to your day to day.

But thenin resale values, you can often see a higher markup on projects completed with that very close attention to detail. But also as you were saying with performance, the gap between what is intended to build and what is actually built is quite large, for lots of construction projects.

And as you said, just getting the right people to make sure that that quality is maintained right through to the end of the project means that your value, hopefully that you’ve invested in the house, will have longevity to it in terms of energy efficiency and the quality of the build so that it stands the test of time.

And I think that’s quite hard because that’s a long term investment, isn’t it? And not something that you’re gonna immediately appreciate

Bethan: No, and I’m very much. The intention stay, stay and enjoy. on going through that again. Uh,

Jane: Just to kind of wrap up what are the things that you enjoy about the property now,or about the way that you use the space?

One of the biggest objectives and we laid this out in the brief that we wrote right at the beginning was we were trying to achieve was the connectivity between the house and the garden. with a young family, the garden is a thing that is very much in use all year round, whether it’s kind of, you know, going out in your swimming costume or going out in your wellies.

It’s like the connectivity between those two spaces is really, really important. Andthat’s the thing that we really love. It feels like the kitchen dining space we have now is like a pod within our garden and it’s just connected, all year round. And I think that is the big benefit for us.

Amy: Oh, thank you so much,

Jane: If you would like to see photos of Bethan’s beautiful home, then head to our website at homenotes.co/storiesfromsite and we’ll see you next time.